How long for a podcast?

Yesterday's social media newsletter on podcasting has sparked a couple of responses regarding the length of podcasts.

How long should a podcast be? My honest feeling is that this is one of those, "how long is a piece of string?" questions.

In the newsletter it was suggested 10-15 minutes - when you're starting off - and then look to scale up or down depending on success, feedback and how much time it takes.

I know when we started doing the very first Melcrum podcasts (crude as they now seem next to today's offering!) we aimed for anywhere between 5-15 minutes depending on topic. Now Sona, Audra, James and co stick to 13-17 minutes because that's the time that can be invested in reporting and editing and because as a group it was felt this was about right for what we wanted to do with it.

In contrast it was also interesting a while back to hear the developments on FIR, when they reduced their 1hr 30 minute and twice weekly podcasts to around an hour (and Shel and Neville get a hell of a lot of listeners either way).

Yet, there's also examples of one-minute podcasts, bite-size recordings that are for a really specific audience and designed to deliver a specific piece of information. It really depends on what you want the podcast for.

Then there's the question of where and how do people listen to podcasts? At work? At desks? On their iPods? On a different music player? Again, the answer is pretty mixed. Even in one company, the range of computer equipment is usually broad; some have older workstations and software and can't listen or watch or listen to anything, whereas others have newer desktops or increasingly laptops that can play a mix of media. It's not universal.

So, in summary, I don't think there can - or should - be any hard and fast rules to how long a podcast is. I'd reiterate the idea of keeping it shorter to begin with, but I think podcasting is like any other media; if the content is good and relevant and people are aware it even exists, then they will listen as and when they can, regardless of length.

Even if they don't listen to all of it, or have to break off half way through to do something else, or are just idly listening on the computer at work (just like having the radio on), then that's their choice or circumstance and that can happen no matter how long it is.

Any thoughts? (Judy, I know you're reading!)

Comments

[Judy Gombita]

Ah, so I wasn't the only person who sent you a comment yesterday following the release of e-newsletter.

I'm slowly wending my way through Chris Anderson's The Long Tail (what is it about summer and the lack of desire to read anything weighty), so I can appreciate your argument, "if the content is good and relevant and people are aware it even exists, then they will listen as and when they can, regardless of length..." and can agree to a certain extent. But, really, how many podcasts live up to that billing?

Conventional radio shows aren't that different; if the content is compelling you'll listen to every minute, no matter how long is the show.

The Spin Cycles series that the CBC ran this past winter, for example (which, incidentally, is being rebroadcast beginning July 8th):

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/spincycles/index.html

I was telling Ira Basen, the producer of the series (whom I've recently had the pleasure of meeting and getting to know personally) that when each segment aired for the first time I would leave my Sunday morning 75-minute spin class at the 60-minute mark, so that I could be home in time to listen to the full hour of each segment. That's because the show was very relevant to my work and interests, it was well-researched, thoughtful and compelling. (Plus all of the wonderful, historic sound clips/music woven throughout each series, such as sound bites from Pierre Elliot Trudeau.)

I could have listened to the audio files housed on the web page later (at my convenience), but I didn't want to wait.

I doubt I'd ever feel the same way about a podcast. Any podcast.

I'm not listening to many podcasts these days (I've gone into this in more detail in my post in the corporate communications forum on The Communicators' Network). And I definitely don't even considering downloading/listening to anything over 20 minutes. Period. If it *is* in the 20-minute range, I want show notes that are detailed enough to tell me what exactly will be discussed and when. Chances are I'll only listen to part of the podcast. The part that interests me the most. And if it isn't compelling, I feel no loyalty to any podcast. I shut it off. (I never revisit.)

You could argue that this is my preference, but here's the thing: I test my POV/theories with peers. And I try to phrase the question in a non-judgmental/non-editorializing way. Something along the lines of, "So, are you listening to many podcasts these days, and if so, which ones? What do you think of the concept?"

Almost without exception, my colleagues/friends/family are *not* listening to any podcasts. Some have tried a few, but found the majority of podcasts "rambling," "self-indulgent" and "time suckers," without much real value. Many others just can't be bothered to explore either the commercial or personal offerings that are out there. Yes, according to Chris Anderson, there is a long-tail audience for just about everything. I'm just not convinced that podcasts have come close to mass acceptance since they became the "new black" about a year ago.

Finally, I do see a place for audio instruction, particularly in a blended-learning format experience. For example, the learner could self-select whether to be "instructed" via text or audio (or both). It's a concept the association education council (of the Learning Resources Network) is exploring, and we hope to have a time slot on our agenda devoted to the topic at our association education symposium (our second annual), scheduled for November 2007.

You probably got more of an "earful" than you expected, Alex. That's what you get for issuing a direct challenge! ;-)

Cheers,
Judy

P.S. I quite liked the (short!) early Melcrum podcasts, where staff would provide highlights of recent research. I actually thought that was an effective use of the medium....

[Alex Manchester]

I agree and have similar experiences with almost everything you're saying Judy; most friends who aren't listening to actual, technically correct "podcasts", sifting through lots of junk to find good ones, podcasts not becoming the new black etc (although they're still pretty new). All of that I think is true, but I don't really understand what that has to do with length.

If you're automatically excluding everything over 20 minutes, then you're automatically excluding anyone who does a podcast but doesn't subscribe to that view (many do and many do not). When in fact, isn't one of the freedoms the fact that you can make it as long or as short as you want?

I honestly believe the length of a podcast is irrelevant, or only relevant to what you want to do with it. They're not live, you can skip to the bits you want to listen to, or just have it on in the background. It's listened to when and how you want to listen to it.

I also think, as with any format or medium, that there's an incredible, almost suffocating amount of rubbish out there, but at heart I doubt the good:bad ratio is far off TV shows, books in a book store, music in a record store etc.

And I digress, but what I do think is interesting is that with so much information out there and people commenting and issues to learn about, conversations to get involved in, your interests can evolve and change incredibly quickly. This is definitely something I've noticed myself, both with work topics and personal interest stuff.

[Judy Gombita]

Alex, I noticed you also posted this item on your personal blog on The Communicators' Network (www.communicatorsnetwork.com). It's a pity that non-registered readers can't see that just about all of the comments made so far echo my thoughts about length and value of podcast content..... ;-)

What can I say. My time is valuable. I *will* devote the full 60 minutes each Sunday to listen to a radio program that is relevant, useful, interesting, well-researched, provocative and thoughtful. Remember, each show takes hours and hours of research, recording, editing and pre- and post-production. And it "shows" in the segments re: quality control. I just can't see a podcast--any podcast--being "worth" an equal amount of time for me.

[Alex Manchester]

The blogs and forums on the Comms Network are available for everyone to see and there are some really good comments on there.

I think we're all in agreement that ultimately, it's the content and quality that will keep you listening, but there are undoubtedly a range of thoughts on how long an overall show should be (individual Item length is different again).

For example, the range given on the Comms Network is 5-30 minutes. On iTunes, there's a huge difference in podcast lengths ranging from 1 minute to over an hour:

Russell Brand’s Radio 2 podcast (currently #1 on iTunes): 64 minutes.

Chris Moyles’ podcast: 30 minutes, daily, gets tens of thousands of downloads. (700,000 listen to his live breakfast show).

National Geographic: 1-4 minutes

Ricky Gervais: 3-8 minutes

Business Week: 10 minutes

Marketing Voices: 10-15 minutes

London Business School: 10-12 minutes but also one of 26 minutes

Telegraph podcast: 25 minutes

Mac Format USA: 30 minutes

The Money Gym: 50-60 Minutes

For immediate release: 55-65 minutes

The MacCast: 55-80 minutes

On that Mac Format one, it’s the podcast of the magazine of the same name. The presenter spoke at last years Podcastcon UK and has years of professional broadcast experience. It’s his view that 30 minutes is the absolute max for a podcast, but when he said this to the room full of "podcasters" most shook their heads furiously in disagreement!

This is really why I say I think it's as long or as short as it needs to be. Content, production, audience - all of those things, need to be taken into consideration, but I think it really differs with each and every case. :-)

[Nicola Cairncross]

Hi there

Thanks for mentioning The Money Gym podcast - we started a year or so ago but have only just figured out how to get our podcast listed on iTunes. We have been doing webinars for a while now and I just realised that the audio from a Webinar can be podcast so that's cool. We cover everything from general wealth creation and I love to interview selected experts in their field. We are going to be getting our podcasts transcribed next to provide extra value (I'm visual and could never listen to audio without something to read too!) so perhaps that is why some folks don't like podcasts on their own? Anyway thanks again! Nicola